"All Together Now"
Quote · 1653 days ago · 0 people like this ·

Hello my old friends!!  I started this thread for several of us gals who have been already working together as a group.  Hope to see y'all here real soon.


Quote · 1652 days ago · 0 people like this ·

Okay Bonnie, I am activated!! I think the others will come along in a few days. Change is hard sometimes. I'll chat more later


Quote · 1652 days ago · 0 people like this ·

FANTASTIC PAM !!!! I didnt think about that since I relish change.  Not necessarily THIS one...lol...but I adapt easily. Glad to see u made it over and hope ur right!!!  I had just picked up my tablet to go check out what Sparkspeople was all about.

Stay tuned for another one of my sagas real soon..lol.


Quote · 1651 days ago · 0 people like this ·

What is the group and how do I join? Thanks.

Quote · 1651 days ago · 0 people like this ·

HI Fewerlbs! 

It's just a group of us that had pulled out another Provida plan (6WBMO) that we had all had great success with.  But for one reason or another (personal issues, illnesses, etc)...we gained some weight back.  So we decided to do it again "all together" and joined in on a thread that was named that (All Together Now). 

We were using the 6WBMO Provida forum, but it crashed about a month ago for several days.  It came came back up but were told it might go down again for good.  Because of that, we all discussed a contingency plan of using this forum if it did. As of now, we aren't sure. It may come back up, it may not. If it does, we will prolly all disappear from here....just to forewarn you (it's tough to make friends on a forum then suddenly lose them, which is what we all discovered when the site crashed).  But I have a feeling it's gone forever since Provida no longer sells the plan.

Anyway, some of us exchanged emails so we wouldn't lose touch. So  I just sent out an email to about 5 or 6 of us saying I'd made up this thread so we could still stay connected.  Not sure how many will come back and join in, but hoping everyone will.  I guess all in all, there were about 12 or 13 of us. 

Some are waiting to see if the other site comes back up again.  I didn't have all their email addresses, so I'm hoping some of the others have them and will pass the word around and we can all be together again.

But you are MORE THAN WELCOME to join in !!  Altho the plans differ, they also have many similarities, I think.  Like drinking the WATER....lol.  And I think you must also cut out added salts, sugars, and oils like we do.  I do think the food allowed for is much more restrictive, but that's no big deal.  I don't know if you must eat mostly fresh foods but we have to.  And no preservatives.

However, the group is not that plan specific.  We have challenges and set a weight goal to meet.  Just a personal challenge.  No competition.  It's for motivation.  I joined in the Valentines Day challenge, then we had the Easter Challenge, now we have the Memorial Day challenge going on. 

One of our members, Nancy, makes up great charts for us to fill in each week as we weigh in.  But you don't HAVE to join the challenges.  A few members have opted out this time, saying it was easier for them if they didn't go about it that way.  So it's certainly your choice.

And we also discuss anything that's on our minds.....what's going on in our lives, the struggles we are having staying POP (Perfect on Plan), or anything else we feel like talking about.  Some of us write a lot (like me....lol) and some just check in every now and then.  A couple women (Dee. And Donna, think) were success stories in the past (meaning they were featured in infomercials) so they are very motivational.  Dee was the one who was able to find out what happened to our site before from Provida, and had said at that time we might lose it for good in the near future.

So welcome to the group!!  Hope you still decide to join in.  I feel however you are going about losing weight, you are still faced with the same challenges as everyone else.  So don't feel like you don't belong. Okay?


PS ~ do you know if there's a way to set up for email notifications?  So you get an email anytime a new reply is posted on here?

Quote · 1651 days ago · 0 people like this ·

Hi, I finally got confirmed and here I am.  Well, I've been to the gym twice this week but my knee is hurting.  While saving my foot from hurting on the Treadmill, I used the recumbent bike and that must have stretched my knee too much.  So I'm thinking, more weights/stretches and forget the rest for now.  also I honestly like our bands more for some of the exercises.  So even at the gym I've been using them some.    My lower body is pretty strong so I can ignore it for a while and just work on the upper.


Quote · 1650 days ago · 0 people like this ·

hey sue.... hadnt been able to use PC today so this will be short.  usingntablet....ugh! bglad u made it here!!

im having same issue with both my knees, and funny thing is, my injuries car wreck didnt affect front of knees so dont understand.  altho i have fallen on them on concrete....twice, and permanently bruised them... OUCH!  and....hit them on interior engine cover in van in ANOTHER wreck...lol.  guess that could matter...duhhhh.  but they hurt around kneecaps whebon i do leg extensions and presses.  dropped my weight down by 10# but didnt help.  so now i hurts when i go up and down steps.

did a bad thing today and only ate 2 1/2 meals ánd 2 diet drinks.  hope i dont see a negative result.  

i cant get cursor too act right so better go.


Quote · 1649 days ago · 0 people like this ·

Hi, I am really ticked today.  I'm up to 228 and that's just crazy high for me.  I'm amazed i'm still alive and can move at all the way I feel.  I have got to change, got to.  I couldn't go the gym yesterday so i'm going tomorrow afternoon   But this going to the gym isn't helping me lose weight (except for gaining muscle mass) so I wonder if I could actually do one day of POP or even close??  The first time I started program I lost 9# the first week.  I figure 6 # was water but what a difference. 

Quote · 1649 days ago · 0 people like this ·

Sue ~ that HAS to be frustrating.  I know I'm getting frustrated that I'm not losing faster than I am.  And I'm gaining now too.  Not much, but I want to see scaled going down, not UP. 

Especially when I do stay POP most all the time.  Aside from a diet drink here and there and that nut bar I eat most every night (instead of my PM snack) and the occasional indulgence of BLUE CHEESE dressing <yum...my favorite> when I eat at a salad bar, I think I do pretty darn well. 

And aside from the pork I fixed on Easter and had for a few days after (froze the rest), I haven't ever had any C meats.  Only chicken breast and ground turkey. Oh, and cruddy frozen shrimp one time that I returned, it was so nasty tasting (I am the return queen...lol).  And I haven't been using ground oatmeal like I did last time. 
Last time, I was still having cravings for bread and sandwiches all the time, so I made a lot of 'bread' out of it.  I know I shouldn't really call it deprivation, but with all the favorite but normal foods I'm denying myself (like milk, cheese, yogurt, mayo, bread, pasta) and as healthy as I'm eating and have been working out, I would think I would still be dropping at least 2 lbs a week.

But I do know we should be more concerned with losing inches than lbs. now, especially with working out.  Like you said...muscle mass.  Do you still measure?  I haven't in awhile, but have been judging by my clothes.  I have been fitting into clothes that I bought last time I was down to 188.  So as long as those clothes are starting to fit, I am not going to let myself get THAT discouraged.

But I keep doing the BMI thing and it's pissin' me off.  I was "obese" which I understood (HATE that word.  It's like testicles or feces...I prefer balls and poop....hahahaha). Call me FAT, not obese.  Makes me feel like I'm 600 lbs.

But I'm still considered overweight and WILL be until I am down to 165, I think.  That's crazy. Last time I got down to 169, people started telling me I was too thin.  That my face looked sunken in and I didn't look healthy (that was in 2001).  So I don't really want to get that thin again.  I was even wearing a size 10, which I was nice, but with my frame I think it's too small.  I am okay with a 12 or 14.  Now I am starting to fit in to some XL stuff.  Don't know what number that is?  16 or 18 I guess. 

I just think that BMI chart is a crock.  I mean, I am 5'8" and wear size 10 shoes.  I am big-boned.  Am I supposed to be the same weight as someone my height who is small-boned and only wears a size 8 shoe?  I don't think so.   

Well, the not eating enough yesterday wasn't a good idea.  I expected to wake up this AM and be 188 (don't know if you got to see on the challenge that I hit 189 on weigh-in day?  Yippee!!).  But that was not the case.  In fact, I think it had the opposite result.  I was 191. 

My gym has a website that tracks my visits on a calendar, which I loved at first.  But lately, when I look at it, I feel guilty because there are more blank days than ones with check-marks.  Yesterday was 16 days into the month and I'd only gone 7 times.  That means I have 9 days that I did NOT go.  Not good.

Is your knee still hurting you?  Mine are.  Did you figure out that it was the bike?  When I use the recumbent one, I set it so my one leg is almost all the way stretched out when it's the furthest away from me.  That helps.  But I haven't been using it since I started hurting.

Yano, even tho I said before here I hurt  wasn't the part I hurt in my accident, I just remembered when I was rehabbing my knee, they used a bike and they set the seat up real high.  I had to just go back and forth, stretching the ligaments, because I couldn't yet bend it  enough to make a complete rotation.  And it did feel tight in the same spot.  So that means that maybe it does have something to do with my previous injuries.  Where does yours hurt?  Be careful, because it could very well be ligament damage, which you do NOT want to damage more.

Well, I'd better go.  Hafta go to Home Depot and get some carpeting for my mom's front porch.  UGH.  It's 6 x 24 so the roll will be heavy and difficult to fit in the back of my Tracker.  Then I have to put it down for her, which means cutting out notches for all the posts in front.  Double UGH.  I can't get down on my hands and knees, so it's either scooting a stool all over the place or scooting on my butt, like a little kid. 

I like being the only child but hate that I don't have brothers to do this sort of stuff. And this is when miss having a man in my life....which isn't very often....lol.  

I'm also hoping they got a plant in that I am looking for.  It's called Walker's Low Catmint and it grows into a big mound of flowers that look kinda like lavender..  Bees love it.  It was the focal point of my raised bed and it has come back for the past few years.  Bigger and fuller each season. I just loved it !! 

But this winter, it died for some reason.  So I have a big gap in my bed.  Of course I can plant something else there but I loved this plant because it got so huge and was colorful.  And like I said, the bees loved it so that was good for the rest of my garden.

Wish me luck on both my projects....lol.

PS - glad to see you posting.  I miss our "crew" :(    I"m keeping in touch with Judy via email, but it's kinda "one-sided" as she was always brief in her posts so it's the same for emails (not complaining, mind you :) and as you know, I write novels...lol.  But she said she enjoys my emails so I keep on writing :)


Quote · 1649 days ago · 0 people like this ·

trying out signature thingy....sorry if it goofs up.  There's no way to preview it.


well, didn't work in signature but worked if I copied and pasted it in post. 

Quote · 1648 days ago · 0 people like this ·


I'm over my pity party.  My knee still hurts more/less.  even my other knee hurts a little.  I've always tried to extend my leg when biking too.  I'm going back to the treadmill and weights.    today I read  "Outsmarting the female fat cell" (I buy tons of used books and glean what I can).  Boy is it a scary to read how our fat cell enzymes ( into a fat cell and getting the fat out of a fat cell).  Dieting is a fat cell's best friend.  It's awful how dieting diminishes our low anyway enzymes which facilitate fat coming out of our fat cells and increases dramatically the enzymes putting fat into fat cells.   Second best friend is overeating.  Then skipping meals, eating high fat content, eating more at night and less during the day,  and inactivity.  Only thing that increases fat breakdown enzymes is regular physical exercise (aerobic).  Author shows diagrams of beginning weight, weight lost on the diet breaking down the % fat and muscle and then after weight achieved after stopping dieting.   The % body fat increases dramatically with eat diet.   why did I ever go on any diet??  Author also says eat smaller meals/snacks if and when you're hungry or beginning to be hungry as eating when you're not hungry leads to fat storage, also says drink water. Says you should forget the scale/weight and get measured for fat.  I hate the term obese too and I'm so there.   bodywise I've turned into an apple, never a pear.  Author says these fat cells are smaller and easier to get rid of (or diminish--whatever they do).  I'm glad about that. 

I've grown catmint too.  Of and on I've had a lot of herbs.  I would never ever plant tarragon again as it's like getting rid of mint except it not only sends out roots horizontally, it sends out tons straight down.  took me 3 yrs to get rid of it.  

Tomorrow after gym/therapy, DH and I will go to Omaha to get him new glasses.    So I can buy some new produce.  I've started buying one only clamshell of some greens as they go bad so far before the date and I lose so much.  Sometimes the whole thing.  But I need carrots, celery, parsley, cukes...  I try to buy organic when I can. 

Hope you have a good Monday.

Quote · 1647 days ago · 0 people like this ·

on tablet.....being brief. judy said Provida told her today they werent aware site was down, that theyd look into it and shoukd be back up witin hours.  NOT so far. but u might wana keep checking.  fingers crossed.


Quote · 1647 days ago · 0 people like this ·

Hi, I just tried old forum and not up yet.  I wonder what the actual problem is.   In this forum, the posts come up first at the top and last at the bottom.  Can I change that?  Otherwise will have to scroll down each time.

Quote · 1646 days ago · 0 people like this ·

i havent found a way to change the settings. i cant even make a signaturem(and cant even duplicate the one i did in separate post).

Had my facts wrong. they said 24 - 48 hrs. dunno what problem is. have funny feeling they were just telling Judy that as "good cust svc" if u get my drift. only because of what Dee had said....that it might not stay up long after they had fixed it....yano?

Still on tablet but gotta say this much. am stalled out @ 190-191.  very frustrated. have not been making time for gym. mad @ self.  lol

Quote · 1646 days ago · 0 people like this ·

duplicate post

Quote · 1646 days ago · 0 people like this ·

Hello 6WBM members! We are happy you've found the FL forums and are able to temporarily regroup while we fix the technical issue in the 6WBM forums (a few hiccups have occurred but we are working on a solution!). Because our FLFLS forums have members on the 7 Day Sizedown and FLFLS, we are going to move this discussion into a separate thread- so it is easier to identify and will not cause any confusion to our existing members. All conversations will be moved to the "6WBM" thread under the Community thread. Thank you!

Quote · 1646 days ago · 0 people like this ·

Well, I'm at mom's now so I can type normal...lol. Glad you're over your pity party.  I think I'm the one attending now....lol.  As I said, I'm stalled out. But it's not like I don't know what's causing it.  I haven't been drinking as much water, I have let too many hours go in between meals which I'm sure is slowing down my metab, I'm not going to the gym like I was, and I've had wine a few times while sitting on my porch grilling out.

So there's no one to blame but myself.  It's just that after 3 months of staying almost POP, I'm getting kinda sick of hardly any results.  Even if I AM doing some things off plan, I would still think the right things would have more impact, yano?

As far as your knee, I don't know exactly where yours hurts, but mine is in the front, like around the kneecap, and especially hurts when I go down steps.  Not up them, but just down.  And the leg extensions and curls hurt, too.  

I did some research and found that if you develop your quads more than the glutes or even develop one of those muscles unevenly, that THAT can effect the muscles and ligaments that hold the kneecap in place, which made sense to me. I ran out of time the nite i was googling but there's a name for it.  Patella something, which the patella is the kneecap, I think.  

This injury was being discussed by runners on a runner's forum.  But they had also been doing weight training like you and I have been doing.  I thought about going to my ortho doc and having him send me to PT so they could show me the EXACT way to use the machines and what muscles to focus on. 

Because I noticed that, for example, if I turn my feet with toes point out when I do presses, it doesn't hurt.  So that means I'm working different muscles within the quad muscle group (at least that what I surmised...lol).

Or, for another example, I noticed when I adjusted the back of the seat for the leg curls, I finally felt it in my quads, which is where I should, and not in another part of my leg (I don't remember where....just I was amazed that moving the seat a notch or two made that much difference).

So my point is, no one showed me exactly how to use the equipment and altho I had a general idea and there are pics and instructions, maybe I am still doing them wrong. I know from researching what type exercises to do, several times they spoke of "toes in" or "toes out" with the bodybuilding stuff.  But since I'm not bodybuilding, I didn't pay much attention to it what it was all about.

But it's the same as doing overhead presses with wide grip vs close grip....I notice a big difference there, too, as to which muscles start to hurt.

I also read that the old rule of doing less weight/more reps for toning is not actually true.  That if you are able to do a lot of reps (like 15 or 20) without feeling muscle fatigue, then you aren't stressing the muscle enough to change it's shape, which is what we are trying to achieve. 

Said you should still use a lighter weight but that by the time you get to the 8th rep that you should be starting to feel like you can't go to the 13th reps.  That 12 is ALL you can do and that's with a lot of effort.  That way, the muscles have been stressed and challenged.  I was wondering why I hadn't been "feeling it" the day after working out.  I remembered that years ago, I'd really feel it the next day, which is how it should be.  Not in pain, but feeling it.  Like you'd done something new with your muscles.

Made sense to me.  I really am pissed that the trainer never got back in touch with me.  I'm sure I could have learned a lot.  So that's why I just might use a PT to teach me.  I  just hate going to the dr.  Plus, my ortho doc is no longer taking Humana (makes no sense to me....he's in my book) so I have to find another. 

And they aren't all good.  I learned that the hard way when having to switch drs to get cortisone shots in my thumbs for arthritis.  My old doc knew exactly where to stick in the needle and hit the right spot after taking an X-ray.  The new one used this new-fangled machine that let him see where he was sticking the needle while he was doing it (like an X-ray but it was live action) and he apparently didn't hit the right spot because I got never got relief. 

But it cost me an arm and a leg because insurance didn't cover all of the cost for that machine, which I didn't know he was going to use so I wasn't prepared for that bill.  Over $100 if I remember.  I was really pissed.  So was mom.  She had her knee done and it never helped her either. 

Sounds like you're a researcher, to :)  That is amazing about the fat cells.  Kinda makes you confused as to what you should be doing.  That's how I feel about working out.  My middle upper back started hurting, also.  About 2 weeks ago.  So I have been going to the chiropractor.  He didn't say I had injured it, tho.  It was just that the muscles weren't used to being exercised and that ALL the upper body machines I use, in some way or another, also use those back muscles. So that's another expense.  Working out is expensive....lol!!

Hahaha...you are right about mint. It's horribly "invasive" and IS very hard to get rid of.  I had it in a hanging basket and it overwintered and came back after I had planted other stuff in it the next year.  Messed up my planting design....lol.

I don't know if this applies to your greens or not, but when I get a big bag of kale, I cook the whole thing then freeze some of it.  Oh, I bet you're talking about fresh lettuces and such that you use in salads.  Yep, that's why I hardly ever buy stuff for salads.  Goes bad too fast. 

I know you like organic so you would prolly stay away from this, but I found that Farm Fresh grocery stores (do you have those?) have an awesome salad bar with 3 kinds of greens and spinach. It also has chicken, which is nice when I caught somewhere without any food and it's time to eat.  I just go sit in my car.  I still haven't figured out if it's white meat or thigh meat...lol....but I figure every once in a while won't hurt me.  Of course, I can't stay away from the Blue Cheese dressing so it's not totally POP  :)

I commend you for continuing the gym!! I was so 'high on life' from going that I don't understand where my drive went.  Well....being hurt kinda discouraged me, but that doesn't mean I can't go work on abs.  So GOOD FOR YOU!!!!

When I have time, I'm gonna try to make up a template like Nancy did for our challenge.  I know it's just you and me for now, but maybe the other girls will join in.  I emailed everyone I had addresses for (the ones in the email about this forum) about what Judy had said about calling them and got replies but no one mentioned joining in over here.  I think everyone is still hoping our forum will get fixed. I am doubtful.  And in the meantime, I don't want to lose my focus.  You all have helped me sooo much to stick with this. 

Well, gotta go lay mom's porch carpet.  That will be fun....NOT!  It's so hard for me to get down on the floor while I cut it to fit around her columns.  I need a stool so then I'm bending at my waist and it's hard to breath while I'm doing that.

Bye for now,Bonnie

Quote · 1646 days ago · 0 people like this ·

THANK YOU ADMIN!!!  We had not gotten word that it was being fixed. WE have all been in the dark as to if it was going to come back up and have been lost.  Most everyone else had been just waiting to see. 

YOU JUST MADE MY DAY !!!!  I will tell the others and will go and find the 6WBMO thread.  Again, thank you very much !!!!!!! I truly appreciate your reply :)



Quote · 1640 days ago · 0 people like this ·

Hello Admin.  We decided it would be good if we posted on here once a week to keep this thread active in case we need it again.  Thanks again.  Bonnie

Quote · 1549 days ago · 0 people like this ·

SUE ~ Well, I can't get on the site. So if you can't and you come here...I'll be checking in every few days.  I can't type on the 6WBMO board from my home computer but if I can do use it to type on here I'll check more often.

Things are going the same. In a bad funk.  Just waiting to see my dr.  Am holding steady at 185.2, which is good.  Fluctuating a little but on the average, I'm doing ok there.  But not because I'm eating right.  I'm eating terrible.  I can't tell you the last time I had greens other than cabbage slaw.  Oh, I had lima beans a few times, from the can (SALTY!!!!....ugh).

Well, not going to write much until I know you're checking back on here.



Quote · 1548 days ago · 0 people like this ·

Bonnie, I'm here. I read on the 6WMBO site everyday, I just never post. I tried to log on yesterday and it was a no go! I wish the powers that be would make up their minds about continuing the 6WBMO site. I love having it but I really don't like never knowing if it's going to always be there for us. I say, "Just make a decision, already!" I will post as much as I can.

I'm doing really well during the week with food. I've been doing the bands twice a week. I haven't been doing cardio, it's just too hot! The weekends are a killer for me. I don't go all out with food but usually 3 of the weekend meals are not On Plan. I think since I have been very consistent during the week, I am losing, although slowly. The scale is moving to lower numbers and my clothes are fitting better. I love going by a mirror and seeing the difference in my stomach. It is not flat but it is not sticking out as much!

I'll close for now. It is time for supper.

Bye for now,


Quote · 1546 days ago · 0 people like this ·

Hi Everyone,

I am a former 6wbm loser too.  I loved the program and lost weight and kept it off for quite awhile, then life happened.  So back up and coudn't find the program, I am sure it is packed in a box somewhere??....  We have moved about 3 times since starting the program.  Anyhow, I ended up ordering the FL program, it hasnt arrived yet but I would love to join your group.

FL doesn't seem to have the groups that worked together and supported each other like 6wbm did  or maybe too much time has passed and things have changed to just blogs or questions and answers.

I remeber a lot of the 6wbm plan, I just cant quite remember all the foods allowed for a B and of course, I don't have that fold out sheet or the recipe cards.  I figure I would give the FL a try and hopefully I may end up combining the 2.

I tried the forums too and yep no way in.  Dang it!  I really wish someone in Michaels family had continued his plan.  It's the best that Ive found.

So if it's okay with all of you, I would love to join you!  The plans look pretty similar but the ultimate goal is to get healthy and lose the weight.


Luvore aka Gail

Quote · 1533 days ago · 0 people like this ·

Hi Pam.!! I'm using my phone to coast post and using speech to text so this is going to be kind of crazy. I will write more when I'm at moms. Glad to see you back. As far as I can tell the site is completely gone. So much for support on there. Will write soon. Good for you and your accomplishments so far!!!

Welcome Gail! I don't know how much activity will have over here. We lost our actual site recently. But of course you're welcome to join us.

I'll be back soon 


Quote · 1529 days ago · 0 people like this ·

Hi, I found my way back here because I found that I had it under my "favorites."    Could I do something differently, as these posts or blogs or whatever are backwards--from oldest to newest?  I suppose there is somewhere to change that, i'll have to look.

I miss our 6wbmo forums; here's hoping they keep selling food lovers' for a long time.

I'm very very slowly losing weight.  I need to get serious about it instead of so half heartedly.  I did  get more exercise in this week but not near enough.   But at least I got to the gym.!!

hope you are all well.

Quote · 1335 days ago · 1 people like this ·

Is anyone still around that is doing the 6wbmo program.   I can't find anything other than this post on it in the forums.


Quote · 1315 days ago · 0 people like this ·

Hello Mrs H, 

I am 2 days into FLFL and was also hoping to find some old friends from 6wbmo. I was really hoping to find a support group here like we had there but so far not happening. I do however love the program. 

Good luck


Quote · 1312 days ago · 0 people like this ·

Glad to have you in the community.  You will find a lot of good support in our weekly chats.  I try to encourage members to blog in the blog section as well.  That is what kept me on track and accountable when I began this journey in 2009.  Staying connected with like minded folks is very beneficial.  

Quote · 1282 days ago · 0 people like this ·

Hi Foote201

My name is Kathy, Welcome to Food Lovers so nice to meet you. I don't think this forum is active anymore but glad to see you here. I am also a 6wbmo person and miss the site terribly, but am learning to really enjoy Food Lovers it has many similarities to 6wbmo. I am on week 5 and have met some very nice people so far. Congrats on your weight loss, way to go! I hope you will stick around and maybe join the chats on Tuesday and Thursday nights. I find writing in my blog and reading other peoples posts from the message board very helpful. I am using the online version of this program and like you need interaction with people for support and motivation to keep on track.

Quote · 1281 days ago · 0 people like this ·

I recognie Suereatta from 6WBMO.  I was a part of NBU for many years.  I really need support.  Best wishes to everyone.


Quote · 832 days ago · 0 people like this ·

I just started 5 days ago again.  I gained weight back too.  Looking for support.  Miss the old forum!